tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post8179573382144368640..comments2023-09-29T06:32:16.005-04:00Comments on My School Committee Blog: Northampton High AP scores spur regional interestCatherine A. Sandersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-11800518462633208042009-09-21T14:39:44.986-04:002009-09-21T14:39:44.986-04:00I agree! Why are our kids able to take so many el...I agree! Why are our kids able to take so many electives per trimester but unable to double up on academic subjects? If I understand the high school program of study correctly, students are able to double up in English and Social Studies in junior and senior years, but other than that, it doesn't seem as if doubling up is an option. Unless it is an elective or music ensemble. That doesn't make sense to me.Also Crankynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-72042885246813464852009-09-21T12:19:49.920-04:002009-09-21T12:19:49.920-04:00I find it hard to understand why, in a high school...I find it hard to understand why, in a high school with so many elective options, why their are so few options for core courses. Why not let kids take the alegebra, biology, advanced science courses they want when they want? If they want to zoom along in math and science, let them zoom. Why would classes these kids take in 7th, 8th and 9th grades so limit them in their high school careers? I am all for courses in gay literature and history -- that's terrific. Let's given our students great options in science and math too. Let's do everything we can to let our kids try and suceed at their interests.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-53358052491951587992009-09-20T19:32:18.082-04:002009-09-20T19:32:18.082-04:00My response:
Anonymous 1:28/3:29 - I share your p...My response:<br /><br />Anonymous 1:28/3:29 - I share your puzzlement. When I've asked about this odd absence of 8th grade REGULAR algebra, I've been told (by numerous people), that "we don't track". Of course, that makes no sense, given that we have three very clear tracks. It strikes me that Amherst seems to see math ability as a pyramid ... most kids do the lowest level (regular math), about 1/3 do the second highest level (honors algebra), and about 1% do the highest level (geometry). In many other districts, math ability seems to be distributed like a bell curve -- with most kids in the moderate level (regular algebra), and some on each ends (e.g., the highest achieving kids in honors algebra or honors, and the lower achieving kids getting some extra help). I don't see why math ability in Amherst would be distributed differently than such ability in other districts -- UNLESS we have a weaker math curriculum in elementary school so kids enter the MS less prepared than kids in other districts AND/OR we have a philosophy that kids in Amherst are less capable of kids in other districts AND/OR the preparation we use to prepare kids for 8th grade HONORS algebra (that would be "extensions") is maybe not the best approach (this is an approach used exclusively in Amherst). I think all of these explanations are possible, and of course they aren't mutually exclusive.<br /><br />I conducted a review of other MSAN districts (by calling curriculum leaders in math and/or superintendents) last summer as part of my work on the math curriculum council, and I was struck by how few kids in Amherst relative to kids in other districts. In many districts 80 to 100% of kids are doing algebra in 8th grade and then moving on to geometry in 9th grade (Chapel Hill - NC, Brookline - MA, Princeton, NJ). In others, about half of 8th graders take algebra (52% in Arlington - MA, 50% in Framingham - MA, 55% in Newton, MA). Although some of these districts are generally wealthier than Amherst (e.g., Chapel Hill, Princeton, Newton, and Brookline all have fewer kids on free/reduced lunch than Amherst), others aren't (Arlington and Framingham both have substantially MORE kids on free/reduced lunch than Amherst yet have far more kids doing 8th grade algebra than we do). <br /><br />So, you ask the very wise question -- how did our math/science course offerings get so messed up? In my opinion, the superintendent and the SC simply let the teachers do whatever they wanted to do, without requiring any sort of evidence (e.g., research, demonstrated success in other districts) that such approaches would in fact be successful ... so, if the MS leadership decided that extensions was the best way to prepare kids for HONORS algebra, the SC and superintendent said "great." And if the HS science teachers decided that the best way to prepare 9th graders for future science classes was to eliminate 9th grade biology as an option for any students, and to instead require all students to take ecology and environmental science, the SC and the superintendent said "great"! Again, this is NOT the fault of the teachers ... who I believe are caring, smart, and dedicated people. I believe it is the fault entirely of the superintendent (NOT the current one!) and the SC, who set up a system in which there was absolutely no requirement or insistence on evidence-based practices, research, or evaluation. I'm therefore trying to change the norm ... and it is hard, and lonely. So, if these things matter to you (evidence, research, what other districts are doing), feel free to convey those thoughts to other members of the SC (you can email us all together at schoolcommittee@arps.org) and/or make sure you vote for SC members who share these beliefs and are willing to act peristently and loudly on them!Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-63586589596366801822009-09-20T15:49:02.505-04:002009-09-20T15:49:02.505-04:00Anon 1:28 here.
It seems clear to me from your de...Anon 1:28 here.<br /><br />It seems clear to me from your description of 8th grade math course offerings that 8th grade math is currently tracked and that the only track not offered is regular Algebra. It seems kind of silly to offer Honors Algebra but not regular Algebra. I don't understand that at all.<br /><br />How did the math/science curriculum, course offerings and available course sequences get so messed up? We need a strong leader to review all of this and then bring ARPS into synch with the rest of the country to best prepare our students either for college or for the working world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-43670317765228511342009-09-20T14:35:40.747-04:002009-09-20T14:35:40.747-04:00My responses:
Anonymous 1:28 - 8th grade HONORS a...My responses:<br /><br />Anonymous 1:28 - 8th grade HONORS algebra is now offered to those who qualify (meaning those who do extensions in 7th grade). The MS does not offer a regular algebra class, which I do not understand at all (we are the only district I've been able to find in which kids have to extra homework in 7th grade to get to take HONORS algebra and the only district I've been able to find in which ONLY honors algebra, not regular algebra, is offered in 8th grade). I asked this question last fall during a presentation to the SC on the math curriculum by Mike Hayes, and was told that we don't offer regular 8th grade algebra because that would be tracking (although of course we are now tracking -- some kids take geometry in 8th grade, some take honors algebra, and most take regular math -- we just have three tracks and we omit the regular algebra track which is what many kids do in other districts). <br /><br />I don't believe that ARHS should be teaching any 9th grade science class that isn't offered anywhere else in the country ... that just seems very, very problematic in terms of providing kids with a core exposure to the key disciplines of science (ecology is not considered a separate discipline of science, nor is environmental science). However, I would be LESS opposed to the ecology/environmental science class if it was OPTIONAL, because at least then kids who wanted a more traditional science exposure (like kids at all other schools in the country have) would have that option. I suggested this to the superintentent (Jere Hochman) and to several members of the SC BEFORE the vote, and obviously this idea was not adopted. <br /><br />I certainly agree that waiting for the whole K to 12 alignment to occur BEFORE figuring out that maybe we don't want to have a 9th grade science program that teaches a course not taught anywhere else in the COUNTRY as a required 9th grade course. <br /><br />Rick (at 2:15) - yes, I totally understood that to be the difference ... the HS (or any of the schools) should not be driven by popularity of parent/community opinion ... and the SC has a role (which I believe they have under-utilized) to make sure that the superintendent is in fact reviewing our programs, courses, and curricula, which I believe should include an examination of how these compare to those in other districts AND an evaluation of their effectiveness. I hope to see this happening soon.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-24327294692527559452009-09-20T14:15:55.786-04:002009-09-20T14:15:55.786-04:00Catherine just a quick one on your last comment. I...Catherine just a quick one on your last comment. In my "NOTE" above the "we" I was referring to are parents and the rest of us, not SC members. SC members are not the "customers", they are part of the "management" of the "company" (they may be customers also).Rick Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347110422224233217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-67977743646628497782009-09-20T13:28:47.805-04:002009-09-20T13:28:47.805-04:00As I read the comments back and forth I have a rec...As I read the comments back and forth I have a recurring question in mind. Why do we need to make 8th grade algebra required for all and why do we need to make either biology or the current ecology course required for all? Can 8th grade algebra be a course that is offered to those who want to take it and the same with both biology and ecology - ARPS offers products and the students pick which products they want.<br /><br />Rick has a point that right it might not be feasible to immediately make 8th algebra required for all because not everyone is ready for it. If that is a goal then perhaps we start with offering 8th grade algebra as a choice to those who feel ready for it and at the same time, work on the K-7 curriculum to get everyone ready for it.<br /><br />I really hope there is some resolution VERY soon to the math/science sequence offerings in the high school. I hope we do not have to wait to align the K-12 curriculum in totality before boosting our current offerings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-15629702281549138522009-09-20T12:21:55.220-04:002009-09-20T12:21:55.220-04:00More from me:
Rick (at 9:28) - I think the approp...More from me:<br /><br />Rick (at 9:28) - I think the appropriate person to ask about whether Amherst could participate in that initiative would actually be the superintendent (or the assistant superintendent for curriculum and instruction, if we had hired such a person). I will ask the superintendent to look into this.<br /><br />As a member of SC, I think it is entirely appropriate for the SC to ask the superintendent to evaluate curricular areas -- for example, the course offerings and requirements and sequence of science courses. The superintendent could then make his recommendation about any changes. Similarly, I think that it is entirely appropriate for the SC to ask for an analysis of our AP class offerings, and how those compare to high-achieving districts, and to ask the superintendent for his recommendations. The superintendent is ultimately the leader of the district, and certainly has a role in shaping the curriculum in all of the schools.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-38119784422715656502009-09-20T12:13:12.221-04:002009-09-20T12:13:12.221-04:00My responses:
Joel (at 9:44) - I agree that North...My responses:<br /><br />Joel (at 9:44) - I agree that Northampton is doing impressive things ... and things that are frankly more like the "norm" in other high achieving districts. ARHS, on the other hand, is moving in the opposite direction, which I do find concerning (e.g., eliminating 9th grade biology, which does make taking the full range of science courses in high school harder). I also vividly remember the science teachers saying "there is no downside" -- whereas it seems there is a really big down side for kids who might want to take AP chemistry -- and I vividly remember the SC saying that "surely this would be evaluated." I've asked repeatedly for such evaluations, and to this date, no data comparing the effectiveness of this program to the prior ones (e.g., biology in 9th grade) has been presented. This seems to be something that has not been of interest to the superintendent, to Mark Jackson, or to the science teachers ... which I find really troubling. <br /><br />Anonymous 10:08 - I share your admiration for Rick's passion and thoughtful remarks.<br /><br />Rick (at 9:26) - a few things here. First, if we set 8th grade algebra as the norm/expectation in our district, we would then have to figure out what that took -- probably starting at kindergarten and moving through 7th grade. But I think this type of change in how we do math K to 7 is more likely to occur if we as a community, and we as a school committee, state that our expectation is 8th grade algebra for all kids. Then, we could fully investigate the curricula used in other districts that have successfully accomplished 8th grade algebra for all. For example, our K to 5 math curriculum is called Investigations, and I don't know of any districts that have accomplished FULL 8th grade algebra for all kids using this elementary curriculum (I've researched this some, and can't find any). However, there are two MSAN districts that have accomplished 8th grade algebra for all kids: Brookline, MA (they use a program called Think Math!) and Princeton, NJ (they use a program called Everyday Math). So, as a start, I think we should be looking to schools that have successfully accomplished this goal and then seeing if we can simply use the curricula they are using. I agree that math should not be a time to "reinvent the wheel"!<br /><br />I also believe the ecology and environmental science would be a GREAT elective course -- and had the science teachers proposed this as an elective option (perhaps after completing a basic course in biology and/or chemistry), I would have absolutely supported it. I hear that the AP Environmental Science course was fabulous -- and unfortunately, I doubt many students will now take this course, since it will required skipping physics completely and will mean that students really are taking two of their four years of science focusing on the environment. <br /><br />I also think it is important to recognize that high school is NOT the same as college. The point of high school should be able to prepare students to succeed in any college they attend (for those students who attend college). I can't imagine there is any college in the country in which students are disadvantaged by NOT having a separate class in ecology or environmental science. Colleges don't expect students to come in with such background, and even students who want to major in these fields in college start by taking broad classes in biology and chemistry FIRST. On the other hand, it would be virtually impossible to major in physics at any college in the country if you had no prior exposure to physics, and it is certainly more difficult to major in chemistry if you have had not AP chemistry. Again, this is why I think it is very important that at least in science (and math), we are preparing kids to succeed in college-level classes, in which they will be sitting next to kids from other schools that have a more traditional preparation (e.g., a year each of biology, chemistry, and physics, and potentially a second-year of AP class in one of these areas).Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-54134224673062498482009-09-20T12:10:57.746-04:002009-09-20T12:10:57.746-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-89487858305512403602009-09-20T09:28:07.284-04:002009-09-20T09:28:07.284-04:00On Joel’s point:
Catherine had said that ARPS res...On Joel’s point:<br /><br />Catherine had said that ARPS responded to her that the program was invite only. We should probably ask the Massachusetts Math & Science Initiative how and when they do the invitations, and if its possible ARPS could be invited, then see if ARPS will look into that. I called and emailed Massachusetts Math & Science Initiative on Thursday about that – nothing back yet – maybe ARPS or SC should do that. <br /><br />NOTE: I think it’s really important how “we” do things like this (all of the above). We don’t want to be viewed as telling ARPS what to do. You wouldn’t want that if you worked in ARPS. But it is perfectly fine, as “customers” of ARPS to ask for “products” we’d like ARPS to be offering. We want ARPS to be always be asking “what can we do for our customers?” so whatever we can do to encourage that culture is a good thing. This is probably harder for a public school system to do than a company to do because they have so many constraints to deal with – from union rules, to Federal regulations, to having no control over the price they charge (taxes) – but they can at least have that as a goal and if something gets in the way of achieving the goal they can communicate that to us, and maybe sometimes we can help.Rick Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347110422224233217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-62172512345900988472009-09-20T09:26:44.173-04:002009-09-20T09:26:44.173-04:00Catherine:
Ah OK thanks for the info on AP Chemis...Catherine:<br /><br />Ah OK thanks for the info on AP Chemistry from the College Board. So AP Chemistry seems like a “product” that people are asking for – and a reasonable one, not a wacko one. I’m not sure I see what’s wrong with offering the product then, unless there is some reason we haven’t heard about – budget is all I can think of.<br /><br />The <i>“8th grade algebra the norm”</i> idea as you laid it out makes sense to me – though I’d like to see detailed data on what a lot of other schools do. <br /><br />But the part that we should be sure to address is the <i>“make things “fair’”</i> part. What I mean by that is if kids will have a hard time being able to accomplish algebra in 8th grade, then just making it required is not going to fix that. I sound like a broken record on this, but I keep saying that just raising standards is not automatically going to “fix” things. These amazing success story schools you hear about succeed not just because they have high standards – and they do – but because they figured out how to get the kids to achieve them. So my suggestion is that requiring 8th grade algebra must be accompanied by something that’s going to help all kids be able to achieve it. I have no idea what that would be and certainly math taught prior to grade 8 comes into play. Probably it means looking at the math curriculum for at least 6 through 8 – I don’t know – and it may require some kind of extra help math support. Perhaps a massive summer school effort – again I don’t know. <br /><br />I know you know this Catherine – it’s obvious anyhow – but I just feel it should be emphasized. <br /><br />As an aside I believe it’s acknowledged by ARPS that there is nowhere near enough coordination of curriculum over grades K – 12. To me there should be a (small) committee overseeing curriculum in each subject area from K-12 to insure that it’s all coordinated.<br /><br />One other thing: <br />I know there are folks in Amherst who want ARPS to be different – not cookie cutter. I am one of them. To those like me who think that way I would try to separate out “standards” from how you teach those “standards”. In the 8th grade algebra example, having 8th grade algebra be a standard – perhaps partly because a lot of other schools do it – does not mean that Amherst cannot be different. The difference could be in innovative ways that ARPS chooses to teach algebra. I think it also depends a lot on what subject area you are talking about. In my opinion, math is probably an area that you should not deviate too far from the “norm” on. But as another example, I believe that ARHS is one of the first schools in the country to offer an African-American Literature course, and perhaps also a Gay and Lesbian Literature course. Those are great innovations, and is part of what makes ARPS different and the kids who graduate from ARHS unique. Actually the Ecology and Environmental Science course seems like a good innovation to me, it’s just that is seems to mess up the path to higher level courses due the requirements of those courses. Maybe it would be better as a science elective?Rick Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347110422224233217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-30434145607770035152009-09-19T22:08:48.294-04:002009-09-19T22:08:48.294-04:00Rick has my vote for SC. I hope you will consider...Rick has my vote for SC. I hope you will consider running next time around Rick. Amherst needs your clear thinking and passion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-66777002890441261132009-09-19T21:44:29.134-04:002009-09-19T21:44:29.134-04:00Catherine & Rick,
Thanks for the great dialog...Catherine & Rick,<br /><br />Thanks for the great dialogue on the complexities of APs, their prerequisites and requirements. This is complex stuff.<br /><br />What I find fascinating is how helpful and meaningful the discussion of this blog is. It's much more detailed than the presentation from the HS teachers at the SC when they altered the science curriculum. I recall distinctly representatives of the HS saying emphatically that there were no, zero, negative consequences to the creation of a very unique required 9th grade science curriculum. I think we're seeing some of the problems it's causing. <br /><br />I think it's also important to get back to the original issue on this thread, which is that Northampton is doing some very innovative things by doing exactly the opposite of what Amherst does. Northampton is embracing tough national standards and course sequences associated with the AP structure. We created a new 9th grade science requirement that makes doing that almost impossible.<br /><br />Will all of this be examined? I recall a promise from the then SC that they would of course review the impact of the program.Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13141742420717242724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-24733595844336554482009-09-19T20:13:03.837-04:002009-09-19T20:13:03.837-04:00Rick - I admire your diligence and optimism in fin...Rick - I admire your diligence and optimism in finding a win-win here! However, I just think this is not possible. I don't know enough about chemistry (and never took AP Chemistry myself) to say whether or not it would be possible to do well in AP chemistry as a first course. However, I am quite confident that the college board could provide some useful information. Here is what they say:<br /><br />"The AP Chemistry course is designed to be taken after the completion of a first course in high school chemistry. It is strongly recommended that credit in a first-year high school chemistry course be a prerequisite for enrollment in an AP Chemistry class. In addition, the recommended mathematics prerequisite for an AP Chemistry class is the successful completion of a second-year algebra course."<br /><br />So, that to me says that yes, you really, really do need a year of chemistry FIRST -- which again, all other high schools also require, so even if we decided NOT to require this, against the college board's recommendation, our kids are then taking the AP test with half the preparation of kids in other districts.<br /><br />This description also points out something else CRUCIAL -- you need to have completed a second-year of algebra, which again means that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for virtually any kids in high school to have accomplished this by the sophomore year. High achieving kids take geometry as first-years, and algebra II as sophomores, again meaning that AP chemistry could not be taken before junior year. <br /><br />Now, let's talk about a win-win for kids. Let's make 8th grade algebra the norm for ALL kids, which means 9th grade geometry is the norm for all kids, and so on. That would mean we could REQUIRE 9th grade biology (one of the main reasons this course was adopted was because ONLY kids who had had 8th grade algebra could take it -- so the decision was made to forbid ANY kids from taking it to make things "fair"), and we could then add AP chemistry and allow all kids to choose their math/science progression in high school! This is, for the record, what ACE proposed nearly 2 years ago ... and a month before the SC unanimously agreed to eliminate 9th grade biology for all students.<br /><br />This is also, for the record, what many other MSAN schools currently do (in terms of looking to other districts). In contrast, there is not a single MSAN school, or in fact any school that I've been able to find anywhere in the country, in which ecology and environmental science are required as 9th grade classes.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-69549092950621868762009-09-19T19:16:40.980-04:002009-09-19T19:16:40.980-04:00It does make sense given the restraints that there...It does make sense given the restraints that there seem to be. I am just wondering if those restraints need to be there:<br /><br />a. Why would one need to take Bio before AP Chem? I don’t recall using Bio in Chem at all. I can see needing some Chem for AP Bio but not Bio for Chem.<br /><br />b. I’m not clear why would one need a Chem class before AP Chem any more than you’d need Calculus before AP Calculus or Physics before AP Physics? Is Chem that much more difficult – maybe. The College Board recommends it you say, but still not sure it makes sense to me.<br /><br />I know the sciences pretty well having taken many in my high school and college years, so I am just going from my common sense with what I know about it. <br /><br />The Calculus before AP Physics I understand. <br /><br />So if those restraints were not there, you could do what I suggested:<br /><br />9th grade: Environmental Science<br />10th grade: AP Chemistry (if offered)<br />11th grade: AP Biology<br />12th grade: AP Physics<br /><br />BTW I am not making this argument to justify removing ninth grade Biology. I’m not sure that is smart or not, and I understand that reinstating ninth grad Biology is one answer and maybe the best answer. I’m just trying to find a solution that might work for everyone.Rick Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347110422224233217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-15162794321526331582009-09-19T18:18:02.314-04:002009-09-19T18:18:02.314-04:00My response:
Rick - the issue with the schedule y...My response:<br /><br />Rick - the issue with the schedule you map out is that AP classes often have prerequisites. So, AP Physics REQUIRES at least simultaneous calculus (meaning it is hard for kids to take that class before senior year, unless they are WAY ahead in math). AP Chem, as recommended by the college board, requires a year of chemistry (regular chemistry, like what we now offer at ARHS) BEFORE that class. Similarly, AP Biology requires a year of regular chemistry before that class. <br /><br />So, let's say we were a district that had AP Chemistry. In the old system (before the SC voted in 2008 to eliminate 9th grade biology as an option for ANY student), students who WANTED to take AP chem could do this:<br /><br />9th grade - biology<br />10th grade - chemistry<br />11th grade - physics OR AP bio or AP chemistry<br />12th grade - AP physics or AP bio or AP chemistry<br /><br />That gives you the opportunity to take 2 AP sciences, and you just have to choose which two you want, OR to take a year each of bio, chem, and physics, and then one AP class of your choice (could be AP chem, or one of the others).<br /><br />In the new system, even if we have AP chemistry, this is what it will look like:<br /><br />9th grade - ecology, environmental science<br />10th grade - chemistry<br />11th grade - AP bio (can't take AP chem because you haven't had your year of bio yet)<br />12th grade - AP chem<br /><br />As you can see in this system, kids who WANT to take AP chem can only do so their senior year, since they must first take a year of chem AND some bio, and then they are not able to EVER take a class in physics (which is a pretty core science to miss completely). Does that help clarify my concern about the long-term ramifications of the new science requirement?Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-40789996890952807652009-09-19T17:13:49.588-04:002009-09-19T17:13:49.588-04:00Catherine,
OK understood on this: “seems odd to m...Catherine,<br /><br />OK understood on this: “seems odd to me that members of a group who want one thing for the schools don't like the idea that another group wants something else” – I get that.<br /><br />I’m still a little lost on the “maximize AP courses” thing. The following option may not be allowed but if it was, doesn’t this solve the problem?<br /><br />9th grade: Environmental Science<br />10th grade: AP Chemistry (if offered)<br />11th grade: AP Biology<br />12th grade: AP Physics <br /><br />I know you want the option for Biology in 9th grade. Is that only for the reason of being able to take AP classes later, or is there another reason? <br /><br />I know that (most?) other schools do it this way:<br /><br />9th grade; Earth Science or Biology<br />10th grade: Chemistry<br />11th grade: Biology<br />12th grade: Physics<br /><br />But the two years of Biology don’t make sense to me – seems like a waste because if AP is wanted, just do that to begin with.Rick Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347110422224233217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-26194193933464365902009-09-19T16:11:09.439-04:002009-09-19T16:11:09.439-04:00Still more from me:
Nina (at 8:24) - no one on th...Still more from me:<br /><br />Nina (at 8:24) - no one on this blog posting has said that only AP classes are challenging, or even that those are the most challenging. What people are saying is that students in OTHER districts have the opportunity to take AP classes in some areas (such as chemistry and statistics) that student in ARHS do not, and that colleges look fondly upon such classes, and that such classes can help students get college level credit or pass out of entry-level requirements in college. That is just not true for other classes. <br /><br />If you read about what Scarsdale did, they created a set of highly rigorous and engaging classes that are basically AP classes (they are second year classes in specialized areas). And frankly, if/when ARHS achieves the kind of objective success Scarsdale has, I'm all for that type of innovation (which occurred with extensive help from professors at highly elite universities and colleges!). But if you want to lead a drive to model the Scarsdale curriculum at ARHS, I'll join forces with you immediately -- and this is a totally serious offer on my part!<br /><br />But I think spending more time with teachers showing the community how challenging their classes are is not the type of data that I'm personally going to find useful. I'd like to know about outcomes, and how those outcomes compare to those in other districts.<br /><br /><br />Joel (at 9:33) - I share your belief that more anecdotes would NOT be helpful, as well as your respect that Nina does use her real name in posting (as do you, as does Rick, as do I!). Am I right to assume that you would be willing to work with me and with Nina on modeling our curriculum on that used in Scarsdale?<br /><br /><br />Rick (at 10:08) - I've been doing a lot of investigating. I'll do a blog posting soon to share it! This is work, but a lot of it is frankly work that a few people could do largely on line.<br /><br /><br />Amy - thank for your pointing out that what Scarsdale did was not exactly eliminating all AP classes, and pointing out that even that decision was controversial. Thanks also for your excellent questions, which I think many parents have: "If ARHS does not offer AP Chemistry or AP Statistics will students be prepared to take the AP exam?" (this answer is clearly NO). "Will Amherst Students be looked at less seriously in the college admissions process because they don't have these classes?" (I think this answer has got to be "potentially"). Will Amherst students be prepared to take college level science classes without these classes? (I think this answer has got to be "less than those WITH these classes"). <br /><br />Anonymous 2:44 - exactly my feelings!Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-61744757848924033782009-09-19T16:10:55.159-04:002009-09-19T16:10:55.159-04:00My (final?) responses:
Rick (at 10:38) - I did no...My (final?) responses:<br /><br />Rick (at 10:38) - I did not mean to misquote you, and I'm sorry. But to me, the difference between disliking a group and members of the group wasn't my key point. I just meant that it seems odd to me that members of a group who want one thing for the schools don't like the idea that another group wants something else! The ACE group is NOT, as others have pointed out, in favor of having kids of color being disciplined more (this is not one of our key priorities)! So, I think there are parents who feel passionate about arts in the schools, and those who feel passionate about Russian in the MS and Hs, and those who feel passionate about sports teams, etc. (and of course there are MANY who feel passionately about more than one of these things and are in DIFFERENT groups simultaneously!). That is how I see RADAR and how I see ACE. They aren't in opposition, and that is why the "not liking" (whether that is "not liking people in a group" or "not liking the group"). But I did not mean to misquote you, and I'm sorry for that.<br /><br />In terms of why we don't have AP chemistry and AP statistics -- I think this just hasn't been a priority for our district. I was amazed when the HS science teachers proposed the new 9th grade science curriculum in that they felt the key change that needed to be made to HS science was eliminating 9th grade biology (which is probably the single most common 9th grade science class in the country) and adding courses in ecology and environmental science (which no other districts has), and that they prioritized THIS work over adding AP Chemistry (making ARHS the ONLY high school in MSAN without a second year of chemistry). Again, AP classes are just totally not seen as a priority in Amherst, and hence there has been no focus from district leaders (principals, superintendents, SC members) on adding these. When ACE requested the addition of AP chemistry in December of 2007, Jere Hochman said "yes, yes, yes" and did nothing. Not a word has been said since that time by anyone in a leadership role in the district about adding it.<br /><br />Rick (at 7:27) - great idea! And this is EXACTLY what the "how are we doing subcommittee" proposed we do, using a set of 11 specific comparison districts. I am going to push for this to be a standard approach in our district for examining ALL things (e.g., MCAS, curriculum, requirements, etc.).<br /><br />Rick (at 7:46) - no, the option of AP bio in 2 versus 3 trimesters isn't helpful. In the old system, a student could take 9th grade bio, then 10th grade chem, then 11th grade AP bio (2 trimester option), then AP physics (or another science elective). In the new system, a student who wanted to maximize APs would take the required 9th grade class, 10th grade chemistry, 11 grade AP bio (I actually don't know whether it would be an option to just take the 2 trimester choice anymore, since virtually NO kids will take AP bio after having had bio, since that would be nearly taking some form of bio throughout high school!), and still AP physics. The issue is that IF we added AP chemistry, kids are then forced to choose between taking AP chemistry OR taking AP bio and any physics class. So, the new required 9th grade course really hurts kids' chances to take AP chemistry (if that was ever an option) in a way that they wouldn't if we still offered 9th grade biology.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-11715248519745407222009-09-19T15:24:51.355-04:002009-09-19T15:24:51.355-04:00My responses:
Anonymous 3:01 - I don't think ...My responses:<br /><br />Anonymous 3:01 - I don't think Joel is focusing on any one group of people (poor, well-off, working class, etc.). I also think that kids from families at all income levels deserve a rich and challenging education. I just don't think our schools are consistently providing it.<br /><br />Alison - wow! That is an excellent point -- thanks for noting it! Now, that is actual data!<br /><br />Anonymous 4:37 - again, I think that all kids (poor, working class, wealthy, middle class, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) deserve a rich and challenging education that helps ALL kids reach their full potential. And I don't believe this type of education is consistently provided for ANY kids in our district.<br /><br />Joel (at 5:01) - I fully agree with your post. I think the goal posts move all the time, and the absence of data to indicate how well we are actually doing (for all kids) is telling.<br /><br />Anonymous 5:54 - I agree completely with your post. It is very frustrating for me as a member of SC and a parent of three kids in elementary school to see schools in other towns doing things we won't. There is no question that other districts are providing many advantages we aren't ... and, yes, that includes AP chemistry and AP statistics, but also elementary school math curriculum that seem to better prepare kids for 8th grade algebra, tracked math in 6th/7th grade to prepare MORE kids for 8th grade algebra, 9th grade biology (or physics), etc. We are virtually alone in all of these respects ... and yet we aren't alone in front of the pack ... we are alone BEHIND the pack!<br /><br />Nina (at 6:42) - I think looking into who gets into their first choice college is really problematic -- given that kids focus on colleges they have a chance at getting into! I also think that it is VERY unlikely that students who drop out of ARHS or choose two-year colleges/programs are largely choosing film school options. But I don't think that getting into college (or a selective college for that matter) is the key thing. I think the key thing is whether kids are engaged and challenged consistently K to 12 I have heard from MANY people that this is just not the norm in our district, and I find that very concerning.<br /><br />Nina (at 6:59) - two things. First, I think TAKING an AP class is a great experience for kids, even if they don't take the AP test or don't get a high score. The exposure to that material will help them later on. Second, I think your explanation of the block schedule as helping kids take AP math is not really likely to be accurate. One MAJOR factor is that ARHS does not offer AP Statistics at all, whereas Northampton High does. So, no matter what schedule we use (block, regular, trimester, semester), our kids can't take it, and their's can! That is particularly true since AP Statistics is a math AP you can take without having had 8th grade algebra! That strikes me as a far, far more likely explanation than many kids in NHS taking two math classes in a single year (I'm sure it happens, but I doubt it is common, given that those kids would then be giving up someting else, and on a semester block schedule, you don't have many choices after fulfilling required classes).<br /><br />Joel (at 7:58) - great points. Still no data. Why is there such resistance to the idea of "Improving a high school by adopting the best practices from the best high schools in the nation." This seems like a pretty good way to go.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-80779884507892498902009-09-19T15:04:39.568-04:002009-09-19T15:04:39.568-04:00Still more from me:
Joel (at 9:20) - fully agreed...Still more from me:<br /><br />Joel (at 9:20) - fully agreed. I don't want to hear about hard-working HS teachers who care about kids ... I want some evidence that we are doing is actually better for kids (some kids? all kids?) than what other places are doing. We are NOT the only high school in the country, and there is at least some objective evidence (e.g., the national lists by Newsweek and US News) that other schools are having more success than we are!<br /><br />Puzzled - I find it so odd that you would be so critical of others and not have the courage to sign your name. I don't see any evidence that anyone has presented wrong information (including me) using their actual name, nor do I think the attitude that "if you don't like it, leave" is helpful. Is that really your solution? If you believe things could be better in our schools, you should leave instead of try to fix them? Pretty sad.<br /><br />Rick (at 1:56) - this blog is about encouraging dialogue. I'm glad it is serving that purpose, and I think when wrong information has been presented, it has been quickly corrected, and that is good for all.<br /><br />Joel (at 2:57) - this is precisely why the "how are we doing?" subcommittee specified 11 districts to serve as comparisons. We should not just be saying "look how great ARHS is" but rather "how is our district COMPARED to other districts." I hope there can be much, much more use of data and comparison in our district to evaluate what we are doing (well and not so well), and much less reliance on anecdote.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-63268535081628329332009-09-19T14:53:37.102-04:002009-09-19T14:53:37.102-04:00Still more responses from me:
Joel (at 8:13) - an...Still more responses from me:<br /><br />Joel (at 8:13) - and thanks also for this. There is a lot of focus on anecdote in "proving" the benefits of the Amherst education ... and much less focus on data. That is seen whenever there is criticism of any sort (one can point to an ARHS grad who goes to Harvard, or a very hard-working MS teacher, or how much one child LOVED hearing about ecology in 9th grade). This can be compelling, but is not the same as having objective, empirical data that compares our schools to other schools (that may also have children going to Harvard, hard-working teachers, and children who love a particular 9th grade science class).<br /><br />Rick - there are DEFINITELY schools that are doing a better job of reducing the achievement gap than Amherst. Many of the MSAN schools, for example, are doing that. Often these schools have a very rigorous (and required) curriculum ... which Amherst has almost uniformly avoided. The other two MSAN schools in Massachusetts (Brookline, Cambridge) have both adopted a physics first program, in which ALL 9th graders take physics and they both require all HS students to take 3 years of science. So, all kids in these schools are graduating having had physics, chemistry, AND biology. Interesting, that is exactly what the Springfield public schools now do! Yet in Amherst, we require kids to take ecology/environmental science and then any other class, meaning kids could graduate having only 2 years of science, and those two years could include ONLY biology, ecology, and environmental science (not a single class in physics OR chemistry). Again, I think the Amherst schools could learn A LOT from other schools in terms of what progams have demonstrated an effectiveness in reducing the achievement gap ... we just have preferred to make up our own programs to see how those work.<br /><br />Nina (at 6:20) - no one is saying that teachers aren't working hard. What Joel is saying (I believe) is that the curriculum in our schools is not of the same rigor and quality as that in some other high achieving schools. Teachers can work really, really hard, and still kids in ARHS can't take AP Chemistry, can't take AP statistics, can't take biology in 9th grade, and so on. Kids in other districts have those options, and kids in this district don't. This isn't saying that teachers aren't good, or don't care about kids. It is about the curriculum we have (or don't have), and that is the fault of the superintendent (not the current one who has only been here two months!), the principals, and frankly, the School Committee. It is NOT the fault of the teachers.<br /><br />However, I do think it is very, very hard to make the case that ARHS provides the same type of rigor and challenge as Milton Academy! <br /><br />Rick (at 7:58) - I think there is actually a perception in this community that ARHS used to be excellent, and has been slipping for some time. I hear from parents and community members and retired ARHS teachers that ARHS used to be extremely strong, and has been riding on its prior reputation. But I also think that ARHS has a tough job, because kids come to that school from the MS (which has been less than consistently rigorous for some time -- and I hear from ARHS teachers that kids do NOT come to the high school with all the skills they need), and in turn, the MS has a tough job because it is managing kids who arrive from 7+ elementary schools and are only in that school for 2 years. I am very glad that one of the new superintendent's goals is working on vertical alignment, which I imagine will help ALL of the schools (but probably the HS would particularly benefit from this).Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-73640193663949803552009-09-19T14:44:10.275-04:002009-09-19T14:44:10.275-04:00Amy,
A student interested in studying science or m...Amy,<br />A student interested in studying science or math at college will be at a disadvantage in not having had AP Chemistry or AP Statistics. The AP classes cover material that students at most competitive colleges will have studied.(It would also be nice to have AP Physic M&E and AP Computer Science, but that's just dreaming ...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6270815429299703055.post-24473705235094881572009-09-19T14:41:04.664-04:002009-09-19T14:41:04.664-04:00My responses:
Anonymous 4:21 - I loved your post ...My responses:<br /><br />Anonymous 4:21 - I loved your post -- thanks! That is precisely the key thing. I can't believe anyone think that "ACE parents support different types of discipline based on race?" Or that "Parents concerned with race and class issues support a school system with low or mediocre achievement as a goal?" That is why I just don't see why people in one group might not like another group -- anymore than parents of kids who play spots wouldn't like music groups?!? Both groups represent parents' views about the schools and how they could be better -- they just aren't in opposition.<br /><br />Rick (at 5:25) - I've got to disagree with two things you write. First, you say "If you’re honest you’ll say that ACE emphasizes “A” much more than “B"." As a founding member of ACE, I totally disagree with that statement. If you look at the VERY first list of priorities that ACE presented (December 2007), you will see that 8th grade algebra for ALL kids is on that list. Now, who does that help? High acheiving kids (about 35 to 40% of 8th graders in our MS) have 8th grade algebra now. Those high achieving kids don't need ACE to advocate at all for 8th grade algebra, nor does it advantage them in anyway to have other kids also in 8th grade algebra. This priority is PRECISELY about medium and low achieving kids. <br /><br />Here's another example from the FIRST set of ACE priorities: Conduct a comprehensive evaluation of the policies focused on raising the achievement of children who do not reach proficient levels on MCAS or in their course-work. Again any such study should compare performance in Amherst with that of other high achieving districts.<br /><br />(These are on the ACE-Amherst.org website right now). <br /><br />Again, that is 100% a goal or priority about low achieving kids! <br /><br />Now, that may not be what gets play in the newspaper or on my blog, but if anyone spends 1 minute googling ACE and seeing the website, that person will have a clear sense that many of the ACE priorities precisely speak to low and medium achieving kids. <br /><br />Second, I don't think adding a class in AP Chemistry is just for white kids! I happen to believe that we may well have kids of color who would like and do well in AP Chemistry! <br /><br />And one more thing -- I think having a heterogeneous (in terms of who is DOING AP work) AP English class is precisely the type of uniquely Amherst program that scare me. Is this a good approach? Who knows! Has it been studied? It certainly isn't done anywhere else. I would be vastly more in favor of finding districts that are succeeding in terms of getting more kids of color and low income kids into honors/AP classes (these districts are easy to find because they are ranked in the US News and World Report of best high schools) and then copy what THOSE districts are doing instead of making up our own (possibly ineffective) approach.<br /><br />Rick (at 5:26) - I think the tutoring idea is potentially very tricky ... and I would hope that kids with different interests/skills do interact in many ways, such as in music groups, sports teams, clubs, etc. I just don't know of any evidence in a high school setting that suggests this type of approach is beneficial (and I want to see Amherst doing much less experimentation). I look forward to hearing the discipline data at a future SC meeting. This is also very tricky stuff.<br /><br />Anonymous 7:02 - housing prices are certainly impacted by the quality (or perceived quality!) of public schools ... meaning we all should benefit from having Amherst schools be strong. <br /><br />Anonymous 7:04 - you may get your wish!<br /><br />Joel (at 7:49) - thanks for the eloquent description of what ACE is (and is not) and why you signed. Very well said.Catherine A. Sandersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523667921190365891noreply@blogger.com